Ah, Ben Lerner.

Who doesn’t love Ben Lerner?

Seriously. Get in touch.

That said, despite being a big fan of his work, I also find him maddening at times. Partly because I wish I could write as cleverly as he does. Partly because I hope never to write as cleverly as he does. As they say, it’s complicated.

What isn’t at all maddening is talking about Ben Lerner with fellow fans, and so I was over the moon when Gurnaik Johal (a brilliant writer in his own right) chose The Topeka School as his pick for the library.

We discuss bringing your own baggage to a novel, the weaponisation of language, and why Ben Lerner is such an intelligent writer.

Indeed, welcome to The Library of Lazy Thinking Podcast, with me, your host, Glenn Fisher.

As you may well know by now, in each episode, I'm joined by a guest from the world of books and culture to talk about a specific book they'd like to put in the library.

There's no plan and no agenda, just two people lazily thinking about literature.

If you enjoy the show and would like to help us (and get your hands on a coveted Library of Lazy Thinking bookmark, sticker, and pin badge), you can become a supporter of the library by upgrading your subscription.

But either way, please do like and share the show—it all helps.

In this episode, as I say, my very special guest is the writer Gurnaik Johal, author of We Move and, most recently, Saraswati. We discuss his pick for the library, the 2019 novel The Topeka School by Ben Lerner.

About Gurnaik

Gurnaik Johal is a writer from West London. He was shortlisted for The Guardian 4th Estate BAME Short Story Prize in 2018 and graduated from The University of Manchester in 2019. Johal’s short story collection, We Move, published by Serpent’s Tail, was the Winner of the 2023 Somerset Maugham Award, Winner of the Tata Literature Live! First Book Award, a Guardian Book of the Year and a Hindustan Times Book of the Year. Its opening story also won the Galley Beggar Short Story Prize. His debut novel, Saraswati, published in 2025 by Serpent’s Tail, was shortlisted for the Waterstones Debut Fiction Prize. Johal was also named an Observer Best New Novelist for 2025.

About Ben

Ben Lerner was born in Topeka, Kansas, in 1979. He has received fellowships from the Fulbright, Guggenheim and MacArthur Foundations, and is the author of three internationally acclaimed novels, Leaving the Atocha Station, 10:04 and The Topeka School. He has published several poetry collections, including No Art, The Lichtenberg Figures, which won the Hayden Carruth Award, Angle of Yaw (a finalist for the National Book Award), and Mean Free Path. In 2011, he became the first American to win the Munster Prize for International Poetry. Lerner lives and teaches in Brooklyn.

Links to obscure (and not so obscure) things mentioned in this episode

* Order The Topeka School by Ben Lerner and pick up a copy of Saraswati from my local independent bookshop in Sheffield here.

* Find Gurnaik Johal on Instagram here.

* Find Glenn Fisher on Instagram here.

* Find The Library of Lazy Thinking on Instagram here.

About the Library

The Library of Lazy Thinking is a place to hang out and learn more about books. If you’d like to support the library and get access to everything here, you can become a paid member (and get an exclusive The Library of Lazy Thinking bookmark, sticker, and pin badge). All support goes back into the library, helping to organize live events, exclusive merchandise, and more podcasts.

About Glenn

Glenn Fisher is a writer—wait, Glenn Fisher is me. I’m the one writing this. Let’s drop the third-person act. My writing has been published in Lunate, The Paris Bitter Hearts Pit, 3am Magazine, Dogmatika, and Litro Magazine. I write about books and interview other writers and artists here in The Library of Lazy Thinking. I live in Sheffield and work as a freelance copywriter. I have had a best-selling non-fiction book published on the subject called The Art of the Click. It was published by Harriman House and shortlisted for Business Book of the Year. It has been translated into Simplified Chinese and Korean. I also have a dog called Pablo. He is harder to translate. Indeed, most of my life revolves around trying to understand his often unreasonable demands. Meanwhile, I am currently working on my first novel about a delivery driver who accidentally kidnaps a pig. Brave/bold agents: hit me up.

Get full access to The Library of Lazy Thinking at lazythinking.substack.com/subscribe